and that's a great thing. >> well, i'm not sure he appreciates the lesson. here's the final point. this is critical to me. how do you know, how can you ensure that young people who don't feel they need health insurance are ultimately going to sign up to get the health insurance? and if that doesn't happen, this model doesn't work nationally. >> that's a key issue, and it was for us in massachusetts, the so-called invincibles, those young, healthy, mostly men who are, in fact, free riders, and there are some 30 million free riders in the united states, people who get their health insurance -- excuse me, get health care but don't contribute to the system, and the rest of us pay for it in our premiums and in taxes. and the mandate requires a basic principal of insurance, basically, which is everybody gets insurance, so you spread the risk and begin to bring the cost down. that's what happened in massachusetts, and in time that's what will happen with the nation.